The Hero Within Karen Hall

Faith Over Fear: Karen Hall Discusses Overcoming Public Speaking Anxiety and Trauma With Barbie Ray

• Karen Hall • Season 1 • Episode 79

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What happens when you step onto a stage with your heart pounding and your mind going blank? In this heartfelt episode, host Karen Hall vulnerably recounts her deeply personal behind-the-scenes emotional journey of facing her fears and overcoming her public speaking anxiety to deliver an impactful speech at SPEAK Faith event in NY. Joining her is the empathetic and insightful Barbie Ray, who witnessed Karen’s journey firsthand and shares her own valuable observations.

Karen dives deep into the emotions that even seasoned speakers face—feelings of isolation, inadequacy, and the ever-present fear of not being enough. They explore how faith and determination can transform those fears into powerful moments of connection and authenticity.

Throughout the episode, Karen opens up about the exhilarating highs and nerve-wracking fears of preparing for her speech. From the unexpected moments of forgetting parts of her talk to the profound sense of peace she found through letting go and trusting God, Karen’s story is a testament to the transformative power of faith and vulnerability. She also shares the joy of connecting with her audience and the overwhelming gratitude she felt when receiving a standing ovation, all while reflecting on the incredible support from her community.

Barbie Ray, with her wealth of experience as a speaking coach, offers deep insights into the importance of community support, heart-centered communication, and together, she and Karen discuss the role of empathetic coaching in overcoming stage fright. Together, Karen and Barbie highlight the profound impact of sharing personal stories and the motivations behind public speaking, along with the importance of emotional intelligence in making a meaningful difference in the lives of others.

About Karen Hall:

Karen Hall is an international, inspirational motivational speaker known for her work on The Empathy Advantage™ and emotional intelligence. She is the Managing Director of The Los Angeles Tribune Women's  and SpanishJournals. With over 40 years of experience as a spiritual life coach, trained under Marianne Williamson, Karen is committed to helping individuals overcome barriers to love and build relationships of trust through empathy.  Host ofThe Hero Within Podcast™, it ranks among the top 3% globally. Karen’s forthcoming book aims to further her mission of fostering emotional intelligence and empathy in both personal and professional relationships.

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About Barbie Ray:
Barbie Ray is an accomplished speaking coach, author, and empath known for her heart-centered approach to helping others overcome public speaking anxiety and trauma. With a deep commitment to making a difference in the world, Barbie uses her expertise to guide speakers in finding their authentic voice and delivering impactful messages. She has worked with countless individuals, helping them transform their fears into strengths. Barbie is also the founder of Empower with Barbie, where she offers coaching and resources for those looking to conquer their fears and step confidently into the spotlight. Her upcoming book will dive deeper into her methods and experiences, offering even more tools for personal and professional growth.
Connect with Barbie:

Speaker 1:

Hey there, welcome back. I'm Karen Hall, your host of the Hero Within Podcast. I'm passionate about sharing inspiring true stories of unsung heroes who've overcome some of life's most challenging adversities. Come along with me and learn how you too can find hope and healing to return to love All right.

Speaker 1:

Well, I am so excited to have Barbie Ray with me today, and Barbie and I met in New York last week when I spoke at the Speak event, and as I was preparing for the Speak event, the topic was on faith, and so, as I had thought about what I wanted to say, first of all, barbie, I thought it was interesting, because trying to figure out what I was going to say about faith was like talking about something that was so obvious to me, it was like such second nature, and so I really had a hard time thinking about what would be pertinent, what would be valuable for anybody time thinking about what would be pertinent, what would be valuable for anybody and then I felt pressure, because I thought I want a chance when I get invited to speak on my all-time favorite topic and it's going to go out to this reach and I remember thinking, well, I could do that on the podcast. And then I thought, yeah, but I don't have the same reach. And so here's an opportunity where I have this big reach. So I felt a lot of pressure about what to say and how to say it. And then I also felt the feelings.

Speaker 1:

At first I felt like, ok, I've got it, it sounds good, I'm feeling really good about what I'm going to say. And then we had our dress rehearsal and I heard the other people talk and I was like, oh, my story is so little compared to these other stories. You know one of the fellows names. He'd been, you know, falsely imprisoned for murder that he didn't commit for 32 years. And I was like, oh, and then there's my little trauma, you know, compared to his big trauma. So then I had all of the feelings of inadequacy that came.

Speaker 2:

But what you have to say is actually more relatable. Not that people can't relate with Alfonso, but what you felt is what so many of us feel, and I felt, and that is the isolation of feeling all alone because your thoughts don't fit with other people's, and so, really, you have this amazing message that's going to resonate with so many people.

Speaker 1:

So interesting. I thought this would be such a fun conversation to have Barbie on with me today because I was like, well, I could tell my experience, but Barbie was a firsthand witness as I was practicing my speech and I was giving her my speech and because we had to have it memorized no notes, which I have never done, a fully memorized speech. I have always had something, some kind of a prompt to look at, I mean, even if it was just an index card. I remember one time I had a 17 typed page talk and it was over an hour long, and when I got ready and I had a lot of stress the night before I did this event and I had a lot of emotions that I was dealing with and I was having a trauma response because of some different things that had happened. So I did not feel like I was on my A game but I prayed and prayed, and prayed.

Speaker 1:

I felt so strongly about this message that when I got up to give the message, I felt the Lord take over. And I think I looked at my notes maybe two or three times in that hour, but just looking at it just for a glance, I was like oh yeah, I'm on track. Oh yeah, I've got it. I'm still. I remember what I'm supposed to do. So this time, knowing that I couldn't do that and feeling that pressure about wanting to make sure that it was so good, I had these fears come up and I was telling Barbie how a lot of times, when I up-level myself in some way, I set a new goal, I start a new project, I agree to do something, whatever it is that I am up leveling myself in, that old trauma comes up and old fears, limiting beliefs, and so I coach people on this all the time. And so I was coaching myself and I realized it wasn't working.

Speaker 2:

But that's actually normal, because most coaches do better with somebody coaching them. Because we're listeners, we spend 99% of our time listening, so when it's time for us to talk to ourselves, it just doesn't seem to work as well as if we have another coach that steps in and then listens to us, right, right.

Speaker 1:

And so, as we're getting ready for the day of on the event, these things started coming up for me and I started to feel like, oh, wait a minute. And so, as I gave Barbie my speech, and I couldn't even remember what I was going to say, I was like, oh, it's today and I can't remember what I was supposed to say and Barbie said put those notes away, Just give it from the heart.

Speaker 1:

And I still couldn't remember what to say. I started feeling like, oh, wow, and so it was just, it was interesting because I felt shame. And Harvey's like why are you feeling shame? And I'm like, oh, I just feel shame. Then I started realizing I felt shame. What if people didn't like it? What if it wasn't? What if they didn't like me after they heard my message? What if they thought, oh, that was disappointing.

Speaker 2:

And that is so typical of speakers and anybody getting on a platform and talking about something just that fear inside that says, what if people don't like me, what if people don't like this? And that's trauma from our past. And anybody that's out there heckling you or saying those things, quite frankly they're not your audience anyway. Those are not the people that you are there to help.

Speaker 1:

Right, and so as I was explaining my shame to Barbie and we were talking about it and she was saying these things to me, then I felt shame for feeling shame, anyway.

Speaker 1:

So I thought that was so ironic, because I do that I'll feel shame, and then I'll feel shame for feeling the shame. Then I have all these layers, so then you have to get through all the layers to get down to the root issue, which was I was afraid, you know, that it wasn't going to be good enough, and and so that was such an interesting process to be so vulnerable with you and to share all those feelings with you, and especially my shame about shame, because here I am a coach and I should know better, but I was. I was escalating, you know, in my emotions, and so I had to. I had to work on regulating my nervous system and doing all the tools that I do and my favorite tool of all tools is talking to someone and so I was so grateful that I had you to talk to and to process those feelings and to talk about. Where did this come from? What was the root of this and why was I feeling so much pressure?

Speaker 2:

That's actually called normal, and we put ourselves on this crazy level of well, I'm a coach, so I have to know how to, but it doesn't work that way, because we're actually just huge.

Speaker 1:

That's why I'm doing this, I'm airing this, because I'm not immune, all the things that I coach leaders on and entrepreneurs and all these things. Here they're taking on a new job or a new thing and they start to feel these feelings and fears, limiting beliefs, and I'm like, yeah, I'm not immune to it at all. I am so human and it was such a human moment. And so Barbie said put those little, your little index cards away. I thought I was doing really good, I had it on an index. No, no, you have to put them away. And so so I put them away and I just gave it from the heart and she was like, oh, she goes, that's the way. And I was like, well, that's how I like to do it. But because I felt like these, I had four points that tied my main points together. And then I had one main point that I was like I just felt the Lord really wanted me to say these things, and so I also felt pressure that way.

Speaker 2:

There you go again, putting pressure on yourself, but we are human and that's what speakers do we get on, these thought processes of oh I must have this in the speech. Who knows what you're planning to say. So the fact that you are absolutely brilliant and may have missed a couple of points that seemed so important yesterday is ridiculous. But we all do it and the only reason that any of us are doing this is to make a difference. The people that we're going to make a difference for, and everybody, karen, that is going to listen to this faith talk that you give, that has ever felt alone or has ever felt like they were small or belittled or told that they didn't matter or too sensitive Every one of those humans is going to gravitate to you like a moth to a flame, because they know how you feel and you're sharing with them how you got through it.

Speaker 1:

And you know I just loved hearing that again. You know it touches my heart to hear Barbie say it again, because that's what motivated me, that's why I agreed to do it, because I thought I know how awful it feels to feel alone and to feel like you don't belong and to feel like a misfit. And I have felt that, and and and. In my talk I talk about an experience that I had where I felt that, amidst a group of people that I thought, of all people, they would understand me and they didn't. And I was so stunned and, in fact, this experience was so traumatic for me that I I kept processing and processing and processing about why did that bother me so badly, why did that impact me so badly? Anyway, when I finally figured it out, I was like, oh my goodness, that's the one that I've got to share for this talk.

Speaker 2:

And because of all the people in the world. Those people were the ones that you thought would understand, and when the people that you believed most would understand absolutely were lost, that just reaffirms our quiet inner belief of well, obviously something's wrong with me because the people that should understand don't, but again, it's really more of a failure on them than a failure on you. And on top of that, there are a ton of people who feel like you, feel these women were just not the right ones. They weren't your audience. I'm the exact same way. I'm your audience. I'm not going to be millions of them that are your audience.

Speaker 1:

And it was so interesting because that struck such a core wound within me that that's why it hurts so bad. So, anyway, as I so I've got my talk ready, I think. I mean I don't have it ready, I have it written. I have it written. And so, as I'm in the green room and and you know each speaker's, you know taking the stage we can hear all the talks in the green room and so I can't focus on my own talk because I'm hearing the other people and people are talking and things. So, anyway, just before I went on the stage, the person that I thought was just like the bring the house down speaker, you know, turned to me and it was Alfonso, and he said, so, arefonso, and he said, so, are you ready? And I said no, and he goes, what?

Speaker 1:

I just was trying to get myself my talk in my head and I was like, okay, I think I got it. I looked at my cards and I'm like I totally skipped a whole section. I just started laughing. I just started laughing and I thought, here we go, and they called my name and up I went on the stage and what was so interesting about that, that moment of laughter, was I had had several moments of laughter like that in my own head.

Speaker 1:

I was amused by myself not being able to remember, and I was just like this is kind of funny that I can't remember anything, and and I and I and so I said to him whatever comes out of my mouth is going to be what comes out, because I had let go and as I had let go, during that period of time before I went on the stage, I felt so much peace, I felt so calm, and a lot of times, before I get ready to speak, I still feel nervous. But then I feel the Lord help me. He loosens my tongue, he gives me the words to stay. I feel like he kind of takes over, and so I thought, well, I'm relying on that to happen again, because that's what I totally rely on when I speak, because I do get so nervous.

Speaker 1:

But this time was different, because I had let go of enough and we processed things. You know, before I got on stage, that I felt like I felt like a shield around me, like I felt protected from lies about myself and from fears, and I felt like the darkness couldn't get in, which was really an interesting feeling, because I felt like angels were there. I felt so protected and as I went up on the stage I'm so happy to be up there and I was like, wow, this feels so different than any other speaking experience that I've ever had. I mean, I've spoken to 250 people at events, you know, where I was very intimidated by the audience and by people listening and things, and what if they judged me, blah, blah, blah. But and I had fun doing those things and I felt the Lord take over.

Speaker 1:

But this time it was different because the Lord just allowed me to have just a little more lean, a little bit more on the free aspect of it of not being attached to what came out of my mouth.

Speaker 1:

And I still don't quite understand what happened, but I remember, as I was giving it, I was enjoying myself and I and I just felt this weight, you know, off my shoulders and and they were laughing and I was laughing and I was having such a good time. And then they had told us stand on the stage when you're finished and receive all that love. Well, that was very different for me, because in other arenas you know they clap, but they clap for a short time and then you know I would be leaving the stage while they were clapping. And this time I just stood there and I was like oh my gosh, and I just it was so interesting because all these people are clapping and cheering and I was like oh my goodness, and I could tell they were with me. I could see when people would lean forward, I could see them laughing, I could see you know that they were engaged with me and at the end I felt like they were engaged with me. I felt like they were so happy for me.

Speaker 2:

Maybe it's because I confessed how nervous I was, I don't know, but but I know we gave you a standing ovation because you gave an amazing talk and you were able to stand there and soak in the glory of everything you said and just the audience you touched at that live moment. Imagine what it's going to do when it goes live to the video land on YouTube.

Speaker 1:

I really felt like a, like a little girl at my own surprise birthday party, like this is for me. I was just in awe that this was for me and that, and as I stood there, they said, stay there, you know, stay there and just soak it in. So I just stood there and I just soaked it in. It felt so good to receive that. I just honestly, it just it was like it was pouring into my, my pores and and it was just being absorbed and it made me so happy and I I felt I felt so connected with the people and I felt so grateful for all the prayers that had been answered. I felt grateful for you, you know, for listening and and coaching me and helping me process my trauma and I I found the whole process, you know, very interesting and and and it was and it was so interesting to hear your feedback, because I haven't got to watch it yet, so I haven't got to evaluate myself.

Speaker 2:

All I could evaluate was my experience on the stage Because, being with you from the first draft all the way till the end, you know you let go of the handcuffs.

Speaker 1:

And you drop the shackles, you drop the chains and you just let your words soar. And that was a miracle?

Speaker 2:

No, you know what. It was you, the way you were there, which was filled with joy and sharing your story and making a difference in the world, which, again, is why most of us are up here doing this.

Speaker 1:

That's exactly right, because I thought it was funny. My daughter said to me why do you agree to do this? And I said that is such a good question, you know, because it defies logic. Why would I agree to do this when it does scare me so bad? But it is because of that message, because if I can help one person out there to not suffer the way that I have by faulty thinking, by whatever you know, the thing is, if I can help one person, that means so much to me Because I know how much I have suffered needlessly and through. You know many different difficult experiences, and so if there's anything that I've learned that can help somebody miss the pothole, watch out for that pothole. You know, I feel joy in my heart and so that is what motivates me to get up there and deal with all those fears and limiting beliefs and trauma that comes up beforehand.

Speaker 2:

And that's why I teach people. You know, do you want to get up on stage feeling nervous and exposed, or do you want to get up on stage feeling that power surround you? And, like I said, sometimes you feel it's your archangels, sometimes it's your dragon that you feel, sometimes you just feel the universe protecting you. But you're there for the right reasons.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And that power gives you that confidence to get on that stage and say I'm going to make a difference with the people who need me to make a difference today, right. And then those note cards mean nothing. Exactly At that moment, those note cards mean nothing, right. Exactly At that moment, those note cards mean nothing. The only thing that matters is reaching the people who are having that tough day that now watch you and go oh my God, if I hadn't watched that today, I was having the worst day ever. And I, after doing the speak event last December, have received a ton of those. So I know that once yours is released, you are going to receive a ton of those Because that and that there is nothing better than that. And, like you said and the reason we're doing it, if you change one person's life, everything is worthwhile. And with these events, because they're so important, the faith message that you did is so important and the seasons message that I delivered was so important it changes people's lives.

Speaker 2:

And when they come back and tell you that you know that everything you went through and I'm just like you, I don't memorize things. When they said I had to memorize this thing, I went, ran into a corner and thought are you joking? No, no, I'll do something else. There has to be a way. There's something else I can do else.

Speaker 1:

There has to be a way, there's something else I can do. It's funny, barbie, because I was thinking to myself, because I couldn't memorize it, you know and be. And that morning, you know, when I was getting ready to get on the plane, I thought what have I agreed to? And I know you probably said the same question.

Speaker 2:

I'm like I am going to go and I'm going to bury this whole idea in the backyard and I'm not, we're not doing this. And the closer I got, the more I did and I'm like what were you thinking? You don't memorize. You know, you're an improv player, you do all of this. But I'm like no, but again, you know you have to stop yourself and you have to. It's like a Ted talk. You have to stop yourself and say why am I doing that, why am I doing this? Because I want to make a difference.

Speaker 1:

I think that was so interesting for me is that George Andriopoulos and Fred and Jason Martin had the biggest hearts. They just they were just so loving and I and that was very unique for me to have the coordinators of the event love me so much and I remember when all of the speakers were in the room we were waiting to start and we were praying for each other, we were sending each other messages and that group of speakers was phenomenal. I mean so heartfelt, it was a to me, it was a very unique group of speakers was phenomenal. I mean so heartfelt, it was a. To me it was a very unique group of speakers as well.

Speaker 1:

And so we said to Fred and George we said, well, can we have a prayer with all of you? And he said, oh, my brothers and I already said a prayer and we prayed for you. So you guys go ahead and say your prayer. And I thought who says prayers for their speakers as a brotherhood, like that? And that really touched my heart. And then they gave us so much love and encouragement and they had so much faith in us, in each of our messages, and each speaker was giving love to each other and encouraging me and it was just so beautiful to feel that unity in that group as well, and I felt so much love from the audience. It was such a unique experience to feel so loved by all the people that I was around.

Speaker 2:

I felt the exact same way. The speak events are absolutely unbelievable. I mean the time, the effort, everything that's put together to make a difference in this world. On those speak events. It shows through every moment of the production, from the audience that's involved to every speaker getting up on that stage because they have something to say to make a difference.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and so I was so thankful that Frank King invited me, you know, to speak at that, because I don't know that I would have been invited, you know, otherwise. And so I was so grateful and it was such a growth moment for me in so many ways and I just I appreciate you so much for being a part of that too.

Speaker 2:

Oh, thank you. I was so glad to have the opportunity and even when we just got there and I walked into the green room and everybody was having those little meltdown moments and I gave that speech, everybody came to me later and said it meant so much to them because they, like you, were having that moment of I have my cards, what am I going to do with them? I have this talk and I'm like told him the same thing. I said to you and that was really you've done the work. You know your stories. Forget the cards, forget the memorization, go up, make a difference and change a life, because you will, and every but this, I mean it was like the loudest sigh of relief, you.

Speaker 1:

It was like the sigh of relief heard around the world and it was interesting because I unfortunately I didn't get to hear it, but you'd given it to me, you know, on the way to the thing, and so that was fine. But I but I remember another thought that was so helpful for me was my best friend. I'd given her my talk you know as well in preparation, and I was telling her how nervous I was I couldn't memorize the whole thing before I talked to you, and she said, karen, she said you've prepared your whole life. You don't have to worry about what you're going to say, because you have prepared your whole life. And that was such a comforting thought. I kept going back to that mantra I have prepared my whole life for this. And it is your life. Yeah, it is my life.

Speaker 1:

I didn't just go research this point and tell you about this thing. I learned in a book. I mean, this was my life, that I practiced over and over and over again this experience and this lesson. And this was my life that I practiced over and, over and over again this experience and this lesson. And then another scripture that came to mind was well, there were several, but another one was Esther, when she says you know who knows, but she had been prepared for such a time as this, and that was a really tender thought that came to me that all of my life, all of those times of feeling alone and feeling like I didn't belong, and all the things that I had learned, and all the times I had turned to God because there was no one else to turn to, that I could authentically talk about that, because it was my common experience so many times.

Speaker 1:

It was my common experience so many times, and so that was another comforting thought that helped me to move through that nervousness and I just felt the Lord really close to me, helping me, and I felt like you were a blessing from the Lord to be there. So I just wanted to thank you again.

Speaker 2:

You know it's funny because the universe has this very interesting way of testing us, of placing things, of reality checks. You know, when you make these moves forward and it's not just you and I I mean, I will pretty much guarantee that a huge chunk of people that watch this podcast are going to recognize that when you start to make that move forward is when all the garbage from all the world starts to pile up at your feet and, to me, when your real reason, the real reason you're there doing it is to make a difference and to help people, it moves things out of the pathway. I really believe that. But you know that a lot of that past trauma, a lot of the things that come up, they're not really important things, they're just obstacles and it's everything. It's the past experiences we have, it's past trauma, it's technology, right, I mean, it's things that just get in the way and it's a constant source of turmoil and it would be easy to scream and run and you could pick the order.

Speaker 1:

You know, I really think it really tests our motive. Why are you doing this? And I think that for me, that is what makes the difference. For me is I mean focusing on helping them, and what I always say is that if I can just be an instrument in the Lord's hands, if I can just be the conduit and be the mouthpiece so that His message can come through me and that the Spirit can touch the people who are listening that to me is a success. Then I just cheer and celebrate when I feel that happen. And the other thing not only do I cheer that they felt that, I cheer that I got to be the instrument in the Lord's hands. It brings me so much joy when that happens. I can't even describe the joy that that is, and so I'm so grateful that the Lord blesses me to have that joy in my heart too.

Speaker 2:

And once again, that was the reason that you were not allowed to run screaming and you had to do the faith talk for Speak speak event.

Speaker 1:

So thank you, thank you for being there, thank you for your support, thank you for your encouragement, thank you for your coaching and uh and and thank you for your feedback. That was just that was fun to. It was really fun to get to debrief with you because I just I just loved hearing your feedback. So thank you so much.

Speaker 2:

Uh, thank you for you know what? Thank you for letting me share the experience from the other side, you know, I mean I had done the Speak Event in December, but it was actually a completely different experience doing it this way and helping and any chance that I had to make it a more pleasurable experience for you, a more successful experience for you. That, to me, was the magic of everything and I'm so glad that I was able to be there with you and for you through the whole thing.

Speaker 1:

Well, not as grateful as I was.

Speaker 1:

I was, and I know all the other speakers were like you said. They were grateful for your pep talk and I know you've worked with other speakers and you're a speaking coach, and so how wonderful for all of the people. They get to be blessed by you and your expertise and helping them, and so I encourage anybody that wants a speaking coach to connect with Barbie, because Barbie has, she has authenticity for this and she has so much expertise and she's really good at it. So I hope everybody will look Barbie Ray up and connect with her. When you're going through stage fright and you're thinking, what did I say?

Speaker 2:

yes to going through stage fright. What do I say yes to? Well, you can always find me at wwwempowerwithbarbiecom. Reach out if you're having that moment, because I do really like to help people get through those traumatic events. But, even more importantly, that fear right before you step on that stage. You know I have a million different ways I can help, so I'm happy to do so.

Speaker 1:

Well, I'm so grateful I met you in Dallas, because that was so fun. And then to get to have this other speaking event and we've done speaking events together at the LA Tribune, which has been so, so fun to do, and so, and we've done live events and virtual events together and we have many more events that we're going to do together. So, and we've done live events and virtual events together and we have many more events that we're going to do together. So I know you're going to help all the women on the Women's Journal and everywhere you go, you, just, you just help everybody everywhere you go, because you have that kind of heart and I love that about you.

Speaker 2:

Thank you. I can't stand to see anybody suffer. I can't stand to see anybody suffer. I can't, I can't stand it. That is where my immediate heart is drawn to any living creature in trouble or suffering.

Speaker 1:

For your empathy, which is incredible, and your emotional intelligence, which is off the charts, because not many people have those qualities, and so it's wonderful that you have those and you give those with such a heart-centered feeling. And you're just, you have a servant's heart, and so it's a beautiful gift that you share with everybody. So thank you.

Speaker 2:

No, thank you, and I've loved being on this journey with you. I'm looking forward to continuing to go on this journey with you, absolutely absolutely. And Barbie's writing a book, and so when her book?

Speaker 1:

comes out, we'll. I'm looking forward to continuing to go on this journey with you, absolutely, absolutely. And Barbie's writing a book, and so when her book comes out, we'll talk about it again. We'll have her on again.

Speaker 2:

Thank you, that would be fantastic.

Speaker 1:

All right, well, thanks for being with us today, barbie. Thank you, karen.

Speaker 2:

Take care, okay, bye-bye.

Speaker 1:

Bye. Thank you so much for being here and listening to today's show. I know life is busy. I appreciate you and value the time we spend together. If you enjoyed this message, please subscribe, leave a review and include any questions you have for our guest. I'll read your review and mention you by name in my Thursday episode. See the show notes to get the link to join our Facebook group email list and to listen and watch our episode on YouTube. We're wishing you lots of love in your own hero's journey.

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Karen Hall

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